Wealdstone v. City

Elmore James wrote:

comrade powell wrote:What the loyal supporters are prepared to put up with doesn't really come into the equation.

I think you'll find it does. Especially when fans start voting with their feet. There are a growing number of supporters considering not turning up until something changes. Bit of a body blow to the 'Back the Bid' team when they're trying to launch 1000BC.

Yes, I know of supporters who have said the same to me. As he mentioned in his post, Cannonball is a longstanding supporter of the club and it shows how bad things have become if he is no longer attending regularly.

To clarify what I meant,  don't expect fans' disgruntlement and staying away from matches to make a difference - it hasn't in the past. Unfortunately boards don't make a habit of listening to supporters' views and I'm afraid ours is no exception. But I totally agree with you, it should!

Elmore James wrote:

comrade powell wrote:What the loyal supporters are prepared to put up with doesn't really come into the equation.

I think you'll find it does. Especially when fans start voting with their feet. There are a growing number of supporters considering not turning up until something changes.

Maybe comrade's point is that, if they do that, they aren't loyal supporters. Not having a pop at them because I can see why people would not bother spending hard-earned cash on a match if the football and result are important to them. However, by definition, if they drift off, their loyalty is reduced.

Bit of a body blow to the 'Back the Bid' team when they're trying to launch 1000BC.

Indeed but, as I allude above, if we are going to try to pick up attendances based on the football alone, we are going to find it very hard as we have no control over that. We have to attract people based on the matchday experience regardless of the football because, let's face it, the football can often let you down. I have had some great days out going to the football where the 90 minutes on the pitch have been the only let-down. Indeed, I once went to Holland to see Wales and had a great weekend despite being beaten 7-1 and Vinnie Jones being captain. Very few people base their football going on winning. If they did, they would either spend a lot of time being disappointed or they would support Barcelona (which is exactly why so many kids do that).On the other hand, despite yesterday's result, I shall be pencilling in next season's away fixture at Wealdstone because it is a great day out, a good club with a lot of friendly supporters. It's the only club I know where I would quite happily do all the pre- and post-match drinking in the clubhouse.

Having said all this, supporters are happy to support even a poor team in a long run if there is a sign that the club and team want to do better and there is the possibility of a win around the corner. Indeed, that sort of win is made all the better for the bad performances. If you have a team seemingly going nowhere but downward and also a management team that seem to hint at no great ambition, you do question it somewhat.

Marc Monitor wrote:I know that I am saying, when we were good, it was down to the players (or, in this case, Phillips) and, when we are bad, it is the management

You're not the first and, no doubt, won't be the last.

Now I wasn't at either of the away games this week (saving my punishment for Bognor) but it does sound like had we come away with six points neither Margate or Wealdstone could have had any complaints. To field four forwards (the sort of attacking line-up many have been crying out for for years) but to draw a blank seems almost unbelievable and I don't really see how blame for this can be laid anywhere but at the players feet.

I also think talk of a relegation battle is just as premature as anyone who was claiming we would win the title after six games (which I doubt anyone was).

I can also understand why the board might not want to make any major changes like replacing Adie and Archie as they must be somewhat in a state of limbo awaiting the Community Bid to raise the necessary funds to take over. Of course, if this run of results continues and we do slide down the table then their hands might be forced but as a mid-table finish still looks the most likely outcome this season then sticking with what has, by and large, been a success over the years seems reasonable.

No, Marc, that wasn't my point. I believe Bath City are blessed with some incredibly generous, loyal and patient supporters. No club has a divine right to such support and should never take it for granted. To paraphrase someone's signature on the old forum, Bath City fans should never have to put up with second best. And if they think that's what they are being offered, they are fully entitled to vote with their feet.

yuffie wrote:

Marc Monitor wrote:I know that I am saying, when we were good, it was down to the players (or, in this case, Phillips) and, when we are bad, it is the management

You're not the first and, no doubt, won't be the last.

I qualify it in the part of the post you don't quote as it is in a particular context.

yuffie wrote:Now I wasn't at either of the away games this week (saving my punishment for Bognor) but it does sound like had we come away with six points neither Margate or Wealdstone could have had any complaints. To field four forwards (the sort of attacking line-up many have been crying out for for years) but to draw a blank seems almost unbelievable and I don't really see how blame for this can be laid anywhere but at the players feet.

I am not sure whether or not people have been calling for it but it wasn't the right decision. Personally, I am seeing McCootie as an impact substitute as he just can't last more than 60 minutes tops. Bring him on when defences are tiring and he will frighten the life out of them. Kaid Mohammed is a greedy opportunist player who is playing for himself and those scouts watching him. As it goes, I think you need attacking players like this - Stearn was one - as they are going to get goals from everywhere .Yesterday, he didn't seem to know where he was playing in a 4 man attack. Pratt, who is having a dire season by his goalscoring standards (the point blank header missed yesterday encapsulated this) doesn't seem to know whether he is provider or finisher presently and certainly didn't yesterday. Watkins was OK but he spent most of his time crossing to no-one in particular as did Pratt. Pratt actually took a quick throw-in yesterday which was good because we had some appalling throw-ins where no-one was moving for Gallinagh. I can only put this down to them not knowing where they were supposed to be. You can't just say "The midfield has been disappointing, let's put on four forwards instead as we have them available". You have to explain clearly the positioning of them, who is making runs dragging defenders out of the way, who is making runs to get on the end of passes, who is leading the line and going to be at the end of crosses, who is crossing etc. None of the players seemed to know this apart from, perhaps, Watkins. McCootie might have known but just couldn't keep up a lot of the time. Mohamed just did his own thing and Pratt was neither fish nor fowl. Coupe is obviously out after his half-time substitution last week but where was Bowman?

yuffie wrote:I also think talk of a relegation battle is just as premature as anyone who was claiming we would win the title after six games (which I doubt anyone was).

Well, as you say, I am not sure anyone was and I do think there are worse teams than us even if we do draw with them at our place.

yuffie wrote:I can also understand why the board might not want to make any major changes like replacing Adie and Archie as they must be somewhat in a state of limbo awaiting the Community Bid to raise the necessary funds to take over. Of course, if this run of results continues and we do slide down the table then their hands might be forced but as a mid-table finish still looks the most likely outcome this season then sticking with what has, by and large, been a success over the years seems reasonable.

Well, to be fair, they were only in limbo while they gave the Bid the initial 3 months to try and raise the money and they didn't approach any other buyers which was very fair-minded of them. I am sure they are completely aware of the situation with the Bid now and the plans ahead and can make their decisions accordingly - either find other buyers/investors, carry on as they are, sell their shares for the £300,000 that the Bid has had pledged or come to some other arrangement with the Bid team. I am not saying this as "a leading light of the Bid", by the way, as I am not but from what I can tell from the position as a supporter.

My preferred target this year was staying in this division and being a community owned club by the end of the season so that is still a possibility. Without the latter proviso, I am not sure how I would feel about mid-table obscurity. Perhaps it would be fine but it means that we are still losing money and the song remains the same for another season.

comrade powell wrote:No, Marc, that wasn't my point. I believe Bath City are blessed with some incredibly generous, loyal and patient supporters. No club has a divine right to such support and should never take it for granted. To paraphrase someone's signature on the old forum, Bath City fans should never have to put up with second best. And if they think that's what they are being offered, they are fully entitled to vote with their feet.

Ah, I apologise for misrepresenting you. I hope that Bath City supporters don't put up with second best. I know what the best is and I hope that Bath City supporters agree with me.

Marc Monitor wrote:Pratt, who is having a dire season by his goalscoring standards (the point blank header missed yesterday encapsulated this)

I thought he did damn well to connect with that. From the view I had, Gallinagh attempted to shoot. It was missing the target by miles and Pratt did well to launch himself at it and even try to divert it in. Had Gallinagh floated the ball in or rolled it across I would have been livid that Pratt had missed, but it was hammered across.

Oh, and Bowman was ill.

And he was offside - flag was up when he headed it.

Ah, fair enough, Mark. From my position, it just looked like him missing when it was near impossible.

Whether it would have been a game-changer anyway, I am not sure but it doesn't detract from the fact that he is having his worst spell since he joined us. As I say, if you have one player having a bad run, that is not the management's fault but they have to manage it properly.

I think you will find if you take our form after the trophy exit and the last 11 games the six wins on the bounce was the blip. Any team that forgets how to win gets dragged into a relegation fight even if they think they are better than teams below them.
The reality is we may not be playing Wealdstone next season.

I wouldn't disagree with any of that.

True, Benny, as Wealdstone would go into the Ryman most probably, whereas we would return to our spiritual home which is the Southern League!

Also, yuffie, let's have no more of this talk of bravado because we played four strikers yesterday! We barely had twelve fit players, plus the two loan signings (who were clearly brought to the club to make up the numbers on the bench). Hopefully Bowman, Kington and Simpson will be available at Bognor, which will at least increase our options and mean that our main (only?) goals source play in a central position.

Have to say that I agree almost totally with what Cannonball says, with one exception, and that is staying away until things change. I have supported the club for nearly as long as him, and during that time there have been quite a few people involved with the club who I had my doubts about - I won't mention any names, but suffice it to say that they are gone but the club and I are still here. Whatever the present difficulties, I hope that will still be the case.

To pick up on a few points made. Somebody said that the board should make some comment about the management, or at least give them a 'vote of confidence' - I seem to recall, after the East Thurrock disaster (which I think would have seen a lot of managers out of a job) Paul Williams came out and did just that and publicly blamed the players. On that basis I don't think a run of 1 win in 12 league games and an F A Cup defeat at home to a team from 2 leagues below will see any changes being made!

I think the next 2 games are key to the season - Bognor is probably the proverbial 'most important game of the season', because if we lose that, and are out of all cup competitions by the end of November, the season is to all intents and purposes over with just league games remaining. Whatever happens against Bognor, the Hayes game the following week is a 'must win' because if we can't beat them then we really are in as much trouble as some of us think we are.

Good luck to those trying to get the attendances up to 1000. As has been said before, we never managed 1000 City supporters at a home game in the first season in Conference Premier even when we were playing the likes of Luton, Grimsby etc. As for the notion that it is the 'matchday experience' that will bring people down, I think first of all it is the football and the results that will bring people to games, and what they find when they get there that will bring them back. I think there is a lot of work to be done to persuade the 'missing 500' that there is a reason to come to Twerton Park.  

The great consolation in all this doom and gloom is Yuffie's only to be expected 'crisis what crisis' post - he can always be relied on (along with a bit of help from Stillmanjunior) to make those of us who think there is a problem realise the error of our ways, and that it is okay really!

And I agree with most of your post LB, though Luton 'only' brought 900 out of the 2300 crowd and I dont think Grimsby brought more than 800 in the 1800 crowd, so for a couple of games at least we had the plus 1000 City fan base.

It is possible to get to 1000.

A winning team would help.

Like Cannonball I feel very dispirited by the current bad run. We have to dig in this coming Saturday and show some fight.

LB wrote:The great consolation in all this doom and gloom is Yuffie's only to be expected 'crisis what crisis' post - he can always be relied on (along with a bit of help from Stillmanjunior) to make those of us who think there is a problem realise the error of our ways, and that it is okay really!

It's a lonely job at times but someone's got to do it.

And you make an excellent job of it! Rest assured, come the revolution you will be given a fair trial before being found guilty...

The problem with the "next 2 are the crucial games" stance is that each season has a finite number of games.  Exactly the same comments were made post Oxford City (1 point from 6) and almost all previous defeats in the last 6/8 weeks.  We don't get those games back so I am interested in what the forum thinks needs to change, who will make the change and how?   My concern is that I can't see anybody, on or of the pitch, who knows what to change.  That, for me, is the most alarming part of the situation.  O and I will continue to point out that this slide started post Ferriby - i.e. 12 games at the end of last season.  Did anybody really believe that the August form (6 games?) was sustainable?

I think if you were to speak to anyone connected with the club, they would cite our injury problems as a root cause of our slide and that the necessary change is for some good fortune in this respect. But of course all clubs go through injury crises and the key is surely to have sufficient cover. I remember some mentioning during the summer that we seemed to be recruiting midfielders at the expense of the defence. Obviously Nicholson was a key addition and the club can't be blamed for him wanting to go to Torquay, nor Simpson's prolonged absence from the team. But the playing of Artus at full back on Saturday indicates how threadbare we are at the back. Using the development players is clearly not club policy so further selection problems here will presumably result in yet more loan signings. For me, one of our best players so far has been Ball - let's hope he stays fit and avoids suspensions. The new lad, Smith, looked ok on Saturday but if I had to choose between them, I'd play a fit Coupe.

Adie Britton is quoted on the Chronicle website today that our problems lie further forward with chances not being taken. I can't agree with him when he says that we created plenty on Saturday, but it's clear that Pratt is out of sorts while McCootie and Watkins currently don't look like a goal is in them. So clearly another change is that we need to kill teams off when we are on top in games. In the past I have been concerned with the lack of striking options, but with Kaid here until January that is not currently an issue. Perhaps a change in formation is the answer...

comrade powell wrote: but it's clear that Pratt is out of sorts while McCootie and Watkins currently don't look like a goal is in them. So clearly another change is that we need to kill teams off when we are on top in games. In the past I have been concerned with the lack of striking options, but with Kaid here until January that is not currently an issue. Perhaps a change in formation is the answer...

I said on Saturday to those around me that by playing Kaid so deep we were neutralising our main goal threat. I know he played left wing for Cheltenham, but I'd prefer it if we were playing him much further up.

Pratt to me hasn't looked the same player since Ferriby, although I think the miss at Weston might have been the catalyst for his loss of belief, at Bodmin he looked devoid of confidence. I wasn't at Stortford, but were his goals there well taken or were they ones where he couldn't miss?

Pratts goals at Stortford were well taken, first one on to a through ball, plenty of time to think about it, powerful shot which keeper got foot to but only a deflection. 2nd one diverted a shot past keeper, one of those where he thought his luck had changed. Hes experienced enough to know these things come in cycles, but the one who is well off colour is Watkins, how many 1 on 1s has he had recently? Totally agree about Kaid being further forward. Defences put 2, sometimns 3 on him, so its difficult to run from deep, stick him up top.

Luton Roman wrote:but the one who is well off colour is Watkins, how many 1 on 1s has he had recently?

Is he well off colour or just performing as normal? He seemed to be similar last season..... busy....

Could be, busy, but no delivery / goal threat? jiust checked his stats and 21 goals in 83 starts is better than I thought, but somehow I expect more.

2 goals this season
2 goals in the last 13 games of last season
Never enough

comrade powell wrote:Adie Britton is quoted on the Chronicle website today that our problems lie further forward with chances not being taken. I can't agree with him when he says that we created plenty on Saturday, but it's clear that Pratt is out of sorts while McCootie and Watkins currently don't look like a goal is in them. So clearly another change is that we need to kill teams off when we are on top in games. In the past I have been concerned with the lack of striking options, but with Kaid here until January that is not currently an issue. Perhaps a change in formation is the answer...

It's all down to man management, training, tactics/formation - something that clearly isn't being done correctly.