Ebbsfleet v. City

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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by yuffie on Sun Dec 20, 2015 5:00 pm

https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/678574446219776000

Great (and relevant to us) tweet from Gary Lineker.

Virtually the same players and formation produced two very different performances two weeks apart. At the level we are operating at (on and off the field) that is the way it is going to be for the near future.

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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by Marc Monitor on Sun Dec 20, 2015 6:08 pm

Save some money getting rid of some managers then.

It's a touch disingenuous from Lineker. Would Derby and Nottingham Forest have done so well without Clough and Taylor? Would Arsenal have changed their fortunes and style of play 180 degrees without Wenger? While you can look at the Liverpool of the 70s or Swansea now and say that some clubs succeed whichever manager, to a certain extent, they get in, teams can't run without managers in the long term. One game? Yes. A whole season? Never.

Ask Lineker if England would have done as well under Graham Taylor as they did under Bobby Robson and see if he repeats his assertion.
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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by BenE on Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:02 pm

yuffie wrote:
Virtually the same players and formation produced two very different performances two weeks apart. At the level we are operating at (on and off the field) that is the way it is going to be for the near future.

I'm not sure that's right - for a start Watkins didn't play
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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by yuffie on Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:48 pm

To be that's why I said virtually the same team.

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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by Ashley on Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:59 pm

We just beat top of the league away with a great performance and spot on tactics. Can't we all just enjoy this one?

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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by Roman Mike on Sun Dec 20, 2015 8:31 pm

yuffie wrote:https://twitter.com/GaryLineker/status/678574446219776000

Great (and relevant to us) tweet from Gary Lineker.

Virtually the same players and formation produced two very different performances two weeks apart. At the level we are operating at (on and off the field) that is the way it is going to be for the near future.

I'll put aside the fact that Lineker's sentence doesn't make any sense. "The importance we give managers / coaches is a myth". Either he is saying is that we place too much importance on manager's actions (although how much is too much?) OR he is saying its a myth that we do that. Let's assume its the former (as I think that is how Yuffie and has taken it).

Its nonsense to suggest that managers (of anything) aren't important at. I guess you could argue about how important but, without them, you would have far less chance of any team cohesion or unified tactics or anybody in charge motivation or selecting an approach etc. Of course there are bad examples and poor managerial decisions and unpredictable variables and you can't control what happens when they players cross the white line. Invariably, its a combination of media fuelled hype / attack (see England teams / managers for examples) and a simplistic (often ignorant) "change it quick" mentality which exaggerates the manager's influence. Most reasonable probably suspect that we need some kind of plans in place and some man management but we know we are in the lap of the gods some days and that anything can happen. This is exactly why we watch it and love it.
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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by Marc Monitor on Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:27 pm

There are a couple of things that come up from a discussion like this - and apologies, it is an interesting conversation and doesn't detract from yesterday's win. Firstly, unless a team is packed full of genii, they need tactics and a formation. Good tactics and formation make a team more than the sum of its parts. Of course, a captain or a team could decide the tactics but they may need to be changed within a game. Also, a manager has to be in charge of substitutions. No player is going to take himself off because he is below par or being neutralised out of the game by the other team. He may not even take himself off if he is injured. A captain can't do that because he has too be involved in his own game. Even player-managers have assistant managers or coaches who will either be making their own decisions about substitutions or changing tactics or they will be implementing tactic changes and substitutions pre-arranged with the manager.

The other side of management is, not to put too fine a point on it, the emotional side of the team. As has been seen at Chelsea recently, keeping the players happy especially with squad rotation needed is a very hard job. It's the old "knowing when to bollock a player, knowing when to put an arm around his shoulder" cliche but it is true. There are other sides such as talking to the press and whatnot but I have to say that this is overblown. The press love Ian Holloway but this doesn't make him a great manager. Dave Jones famously (and somewhat rightfully) was suspicious of the press but that didn't stop him being as good if not a better manager than Holloway.

Where this puts Britton, Howells or even Rollo, I don't know but whatever their flaws, I would prefer them there then no-one. While players have to take responsibility and perform on the pitch, they are often self-centred and looking after themselves and won't make the right decision for the team. You have to have someone who is going to take the decision for the team even if this is not seen as best for the player by the player. They also have to deal with the fall-out of those decisions.

At the end of the day, it is easy to see why you need managers. Even as someone who is a great fan of collective responsibility and, of course, community ownership, you have to have some taking a lead and making decisions. All industries, charities and community projects have managers and there is no reason why football should be different. Tellingly, Lineker has never tried to manage. Like many great players, I am not sure he would be good. Managing is like teaching. Knowing how to do stuff doesn't necessarily mean you can pass onto others how to do it. It is interesting how many top flight managers nowadays weren't players to a great standard but are good managers - Wenger, Mourinho, Hodgson, Houllier. As it goes, all of these taught previously as well.
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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by kermit on Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 pm

Ashley wrote:We just beat top of the league away with a great performance and spot on tactics. Can't we all just enjoy this one?
Indeed. And why hasn't Yuffie put a photo of Andy's Christmas jumper on the forum for us all to enjoy? It really was something else!

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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by comrade powell on Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:08 am

If you enlarge it, said jumper can be made out in nearly all of its glory!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/14036694@N03/23780428141/in/album-72157660256632303/
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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by SASCHA on Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:40 am

Now there's a surprise, Shane and Rob with a drink in their hands.
Looks like Rob  is due a refill (again).

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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by Colin Voutt on Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:51 am

comrade powell wrote:If you enlarge it, said jumper can be made out in nearly all of its glory!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/14036694@N03/23780428141/in/album-72157660256632303/

Thank you.

They don't look a happy bunch. Were the City under the cosh?

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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by comrade powell on Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:08 pm

I think it was taken just after we scored!
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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by Roman Mike on Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:57 pm

Colin Voutt wrote:
comrade powell wrote:If you enlarge it, said jumper can be made out in nearly all of its glory!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/14036694@N03/23780428141/in/album-72157660256632303/

Thank you.

They don't look a happy bunch. Were the City under the cosh?

a) We are city fans. What is there to be happy about :-)
b) Its half time. Pic taken at 14:47
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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by BenE on Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:09 pm

yuffie wrote:To be that's why I said virtually the same team.

Given that we have a squad of 15 fit players there is a good chance that it will be something like the same team. Nevertheless from the permutations available Williams also replaced Hemmings. Crucially at one stage against H+Y Watkins McCootie and Pratt were on at the same time. We didn't come close to that on Saturday.

I don't want to be contrary but I thought 'virtually the same team' was stretching it a bit.
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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by kermit on Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:05 pm

SASCHA wrote:Now there's a surprise, Shane and Rob with a drink in their hands.
Looks like Rob  is due a refill (again).
It was a full pint when Bas came over to sign me up for trips to Havant & Waterloovile and Truro!
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Re: Ebbsfleet v. City

Post by kermit on Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:09 pm

Roman Mike wrote:
Colin Voutt wrote:
comrade powell wrote:If you enlarge it, said jumper can be made out in nearly all of its glory!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/14036694@N03/23780428141/in/album-72157660256632303/

Thank you.

They don't look a happy bunch. Were the City under the cosh?

a) We are city fans.  What is there to be happy about :-)
b) Its half time.  Pic taken at 14:47
It certainly wasn't 14.47, or half time. I reckon more like 10 minutes into the second half. We looked happier singing Jingle Bells with 92 minutes gone!
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